From Free Will to Forgiveness

The following is a statement I made and the ensuing conversation that arose from it. I hope it edifies and encourages you.

"We believe that salvation is by God alone as He sovereignly chooses those He will save." See anything wrong with this statement of faith? I do. God doesn't choose who is saved and who is not. God wants all men to come to faith in Christ. If not, Jesus would not have said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16)."

DW: Good topic. I didn't take it as He chooses who comes to Him for salvation but rather that He chooses who will enter into heaven (i.e. those He will save from hell)

DW: Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

96toLife: Hi, I know someone who attends the church from which I took this statement. This person believes, and confirms the churches teaching, that humanity does not have free will to choose to accept Christ by faith. But, I do see what you are saying. Thanks bro! In Him.

DW: Many of us seek salvation but then don't DO what God requires. We believe if we just confess & believe that that is enough to get us a "pass". So we continue on never growing in spiritual maturity and not trying to be delivered from our hang-ups. Will me actually make it? I believe that only He knows that answer. Man, you got me up early studying. LOL

96tolife: Good passage. Thanks for posting it. However, I don't believe it applies to the topic. The verses apply to those who never accepted Christ by faith, but were doing things in His name for personal gain. It is not about them not having the choice to accept Christ in the first place.

96tolife: Yes, all you have to do is confess and believe. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Rom 10:9)." The level to which one grows and matures from the point of salvation has nothing to do with whether or not they go to Heaven. It has everything to do with what they believe about who they are in Christ.

DW: Ahhh, well in that case the statement of faith is wrong! And that's where that scriptural verse would definitely apply. Wow! I can't believe that a "church" would even state that there is no free will. If that was the case then Gods word would be a lie because you can't force someone to love you back. That's not love and last I checked God is love.

96toLife: Amen to that.

DW: I love these discussions. Ok, so here is something I've wrestled with. If a person confesses and believes but then continues to do something like kill kids (heaven forbid) does that person still make it into heaven even though they confess and believe?

96toLife: Is murder a sin? Yes, it is. Did Jesus die for that sin? Yes, He did. The question I hear you asking is "If we continue to sin after we are saved are we still saved?" Why stop at murder? What about sins like worry, lust, coveting, lying, stealing, cheating, fornication, adultery, slander, gossip, coarse jesting, silly talk and so on. All of them were forgiven at the cross. And, if you are in Christ, you have forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7)." The question isn't about whether a person who kills children, after claiming to have accepted Jesus Christ, will make it to heaven, the question is "What Jesus did you accept?" Or more importantly, why do you feel you need to kill children? Bottom line is that our sins do not separate us from God. Personally, I would question the salvation of someone who is killing children. And, of course, the behavior is not consistent with being a Christian. But, our behavior is an indication of what we believe about our God. Even the murderers sins do not separate them from the love of God. However, the murderers sins are a good indication that they are not receiving God's love, acceptance and forgiveness they have been given. Great question, bro! YBIC

DW: Indeed sin is sin in Gods eyes. Its us humans that place levels of "wrongness" on it. It's a touchy topic amongst the Christian circle because some of us would get so offended if you compared our sexual sin or cussing mouths to a stone cold killer. The answers are there but don't seem so black & white to us all the time. Great discussion to start this day bro!

96tolife: I agree, thanks D!